The Guardian from London, Greater London, England • 10

THE MANCHESTER GTJARDIAX THURSDAY. NOVEMBER 2, 1911. take to consider this point, and would deal were going to solve poverty problems of an HOUSE OE COMMONS. i with the view of securing its application in case. At present the refugees are-being pense3 of the Insurance Commissioners and their staff, and that these were to be de- ducted from the Post-office contributors.

Mr. LYTTELTON: Not solely. The right hon. sentLeman must not misrepresent entLeman must not misrepresent me. 1 1 said these were the expenses which wou be the most costly complaints dealt with a Oblem that Was- xem- the depLk ootataS would be rt contrt- ifor a friendly eocffely.

Rheumatism vas dis- jP1" charter. He had asked for prao-butors. covered because tha mifferlns frorn suggestions on this subject, but, not a causa th naon mifferms fiofn tt cellor. It dealt with a gf6biem that Wast tern- sugses.iona on tnis subject, dot. aw and take' worth their whils to.

talm their ohsmce and him although his health was not perfect. Pauperised Through Sickness Jhis was the scheme, continued tho Chan- ifiinS1(? suggestion had ho got except Mr. Lyttel- latter fatuouB suggestion for an old-age at 60 ymr ot ua What was tfc good la-affa poastdti to a PoBt-offloo con- iiunareds and thousands were con-, sumptivoa. They had to faoe an Immediate problem, and to offer a pension scheme was almost an insult to them. Tho hon.

member hla mln3 nnt r. tn amendment of tho bill had suggested as an alternative a sort of mutual insurance that that lame, the con-, i round, and h- he harl not hppr, able to reach any other conclusion. It be argued that Tnat end not involve a medical test It rea lb- did involve a meciii tn. Tt a Committee rrnriSMnr a happened to ti wna eenerallv known that so-flM-so suffered from and although tW mi-ut. ni it tho sufferer's namo waimft Bubmittcd'to a society, ana ho dld not get A Boslcty could reject.

a man for reasons other than those supplied by a medical test. Tba moment the right of exclusion was grantod there was a Tosiduum preblom of tlw Mr. Sherwell's Four Classes. Who Wr t. 22.

Si J. member for HuddersfleM (Mr Shenv-cll) gave "uusueu u'J--. taree classes of people, and a possible class. I acceDt thn three classes (Mr. George continued not the fourth the three classes It is too! ZTJTlT he Pos "0fflCe fautora he wholly the people rejected on Mr.

LLOYD GEORGE: That shows that the right hon. gentleman does not know the bill, i as a matter of tact not a penny paooa or uio costs of the Insurance Coamiis6ionerg or their Staff will come out of the funds of the Post-office contributors or tho others. Mr. LYTTELTON Under what clause? Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Under one of the clauses of the biK.

Does the right hon. gentie-1 man challenge me? Mr. LYTTELTON: I do. Mr. LLOYD GEORGE That shows he knows absolutely nothing about the bill If her had only oonsulted the colleague beside hiia he would know that the costs of the Insurance Commissioners is a charge wholly apart from nj i torial ThTrighTho" nZi' the leader of the OpposMon have been ing th bill for six months without knowing the elements of cheers.) Con-; tinuing, Mr.

Lloyd George said that another tundamental error under which the right hon, gentleman waa labouring was the impression that whr. ini, tha bo highly-waged persons and that, those who flUmPtive. tho casual, and the loafer should In-, Mr L. W. EVANS U--Colchester) said the sure ennb nihar Tt Wll waa that it the ground of health or becauee they wereitllose wtt0 really deserved help, and to help caju-al labourers.

That will not be the case at all. There will be. of enntu. those rejected for health. Seconrilv.

the will ho tha jomeoi uie Foat-office contributors would be wws ana local reputations are Known an-i lower-waged persons. It had nothing to doirrcvent teir admission igto a society. Then with the wages A man earning 3 a week t5lere is the casual worker, and him vou can with money in the savings bank nright he a' divide into two classes. There is the casual rosWMnce contributor, and a woman earning sourer who canuot find work; theTe is the nrougn sickness, in England and Wales butor bs deprived of the whole benefit 9s. a week might be a member of a friendly casial worker who won't find work and there thousands of people were afflicted with tuber-: which insurance gave to those who came under SQCiefcv.

That, ixrna a is s. tliird cln oulosis, the mainritv nf whnm wnniri cr in th the scheme bv means of lihe- friendly eooiety economio kind by giving benents ubu Tiill Thn which the Post- office contributor presented to tho Chancellor of itm fv.WaN. w. He Bad, to dis- c(Jver thQ sickness risk. If wtts going to allow a body of men to segreui selves so that the avarase sickness risK oi wcu.

SQDietv flWfl thft averae sickness risk of the hf wuld he unduly eubJtfoifling thnKn rhat th of tho whole prohlcm. If the friendly societies -Were going to bfl ma on a 53 risk which 'was oen ta(m the averegQ 8ickness risk he vraa not going to help them to do it. Thft justification for the proposals made by the Lauour party office contributor's risk until it reacnea level of the general social sickness would SUpp0t the amendment for the reason that in this clause they were travelling oer the sooner it was su, oud ihThSf- rfBW nto seoarate societies, Src; Pnrf.r,fflce Fund. ''eireirrepimc It JAyJS Ch.ar,celh5r of the Exchequer was wrong in deMribjiJ ffis propoji as one for the Post- contributors to insure each other. He was for spreading the risk over a "Hf a iiffi.P, ixrna Rn fllt- satisfied with th clause even with the amend- ment to improve it that he intended to vote CRIPPS said that the difficulties in rcga'lxi 'to the Post-office contributor had arisen because the whole framework of the was mj or the trade union.

This Post-office Fund was butor had a claim against the fund only to the extent to which he iridtviduallv had contributeQ really not an insurance fund at all. A contri- lc- "was nouiing out roooery ana raro- h.Lon Ior lve to seize tne money baaing died. a man's credit in the Post-office when he Mr Mr. J. W.

WILSON (L North Worcester- snire) Does not that happen in the tnendly societies? Sir C. A. CRIPPS In the friendly societies you have the principle of insurance, and wnere liiaiuuer joius a ii'ienuiy society now no uoes voluntarily it is a voluntary bareain. He may bargain, for instance, to have the amount at.fllrl'iT-IO. tj- iia An -Jit Asm tli But the sclieme of this bill is compulsory, and there is here no chance of such a bargain.

At the point the CHAIRMAN Mr. Whitley) lentioned that the general discussion of the clause had lasted 6A hours. It would be as well, he suggested, if members addressed themselves forthwith to the amendment before the Committee. Mr. L.

S. AMERY (U Birmingham) said he believed that on the present basis these deposit cuu.LHuuiur.s were insurcct to a certain extent l3U't n.ot for the benefit which the bill pretended to He had made some calculations imtemifv hnfiic Tla t.f it Trtnnipo contiributiona and comolete emmov- during the whole time with not a single cituess ior a man to be able to gr-t a person who contributed for 7J. vpots withrwit i- J.T. 6. juJtw ivjuuiuhujw- ttni, kmafit ingfnnih, Wt sickikssb oenent or maternity oeiicnc, would be entitled to one week's disablement benefit, A man who dTew sickness benefit two weeks a ye'dT on.

an average and on two occasions drew niaternity benefit would have to wait for 39 years in order to get one week'e disablement benefit and maternity benefit for three occasions. The maximum benefit he could draw. in the way of disablement benefit if ho -contributed 55 vfians woulrl hn oiia month TTif chancellor had kept this deposit, scheme in the background in hie speeches outside the House tfTll0 T-ai as entirely unsatisfactory, and ha inie would not be long when the ic unsound financial ajrranceniGntt on which the bill was found-fid woulH hn aterially altered. COnposition cheers.) Mr. J.

W. WILSON contended that there was Ml I'WIJKia UI UtMirttllfB HI MIS OI Me Dili. If a man died his deposit was carriod the ceneral fund for the benefit, of otl ijki 'eposit insur- contributors Was not that a form an co i Mr. A. CHAMBERLAIN (U East Worcester shire) admitted that there was an element of tontine insurance provided for in the clause.

RUt ot insurance, SHVllWET.T.'S a rkumvTi CARRIED. At a quarter to Beven o'clock Mr. Lloyd Georse aoDealed to the Committee to brine tins discussion to a close. Jr. Sherwell's amendment was then agreed to.

THE CASE OF THE BLIND. Mr. F. CASSEL (U St. Pancras) pointed out that as the bill was drawn only employed per- nr.

i- i ii sidering, with his assistant nH t.h gH(mi 14 months "iwsu who caunoi wori. uu 1T1(1nt of the very able medical offuwr of t.bo "RnaT-rf nf uuia wecit i Education. t.h nn Hvr i it. on tne itepoit stage. The amendment was withdrawn.

On tha mntinn that rianso 3S ctani bill, i-oim, Mr. FfiTstr. Mr. r- r- WdSiRI scheme which had been brought forward earlir ii.SIrV,:B00:C,H said he yarded the claue the ablest, cleverest, and best-drawn portion iv the bill. It had stood impregnable aga'" the petty criticism it had met with.

A division was challenged, and there voh For the clause 1" Against i-y Government majority jci aDt1 Mr' Araery were tellers lor AN EARLY ADJOURNMENT. To clause 33 of the bill there were 16 nients on the paper. Of those in order three proposed, but almost immediately withd'a-'vn by consent. The House was nearly 'f-when, at five minutes to nine, the Lenin'--Chairman (Mr. Maclean) put the motion' the clause unamended stand part of the bill" Not a single voice was raised- against motion, and there were some Ministerial r'r.

when it was declared carried Mr. LLOYD GEORGE at once moved tha-progress be reported. This likewise was agreed to. There was wait of a minute or two for the Sneaker nr v- deputy, Mr Whitley, but as nefthi once available. Afr -mi, "a-- place.

LUOit llle fpeaker-s The orders of the dav were immedintpK- through and by nine o'clock th ttt" adjourned. There were some cheers for Maclean, presumably to mark the hat n- wl in which he had "reported progress self and got through the remaining busing BRADFORD CHAMBER'S RES0LUTI0V AND PEACEFUL PICKETING. The Bradford Chamber of Commerce veste-day, on tho motion of Colonel H. A Foste-passed a resolution confirming the stron- jections expressed when the Trades Dilutes Bill was passed in 1906, and calling upon th. Government to introduce a bill to cancel o-' modify the provisions of the law which pc-rni---eo-called peaceful picketing." as it is an in fringement of the liberty of the subjr-- Mr.

T. Whiteley pointed out that therharobe-had previously passed a resolution callir Royal Commission on the subject, Trai--, unionist's and working men were very much favour of the Act, and it seemed that potne a little out of their way linnec' tan after their former resolutions, and wc-k, likely to get up the backs of the work ng c1m ought to try to remedy the position by lean-lating so that it was possible to identify 0fftn 1 j.1 umy wo persons vveiA fallowed to be at any exit from business pro i mises that would prevent some intimidatW but the great difficulty from the crowd-. which assembled. It would appear tv law there was strong enough, but he should lit to see it enacted that when them was a sennit trade dispute Uie Chif Constable could co I- Watch Committee and declare that hi: present force not sufficient to defend even- worker from neacefullv to his work an-i wia i.na ine justices cono.ir ring shovild be able to issue a proclamation tha'. after such and such a time if more (han twelve people assembled together after having been' ordered1 to move on by the police they could arrested, taken to the" nearest police office, anrl then released on bail if necessary.

LEEDS MURDER CASE. The inquest on Ada Wilson (25), of Rutland Terrace, Leeds, was held yesterday, and a verdict of murder was returned against a niar, named Marsland. The woman rushed from bnr house with her throat cut, and Marsknd after wards gave himself up to the police. FIRST HOTEL LONDON Centrally situated in High Holborn. Tube station one minute's walk, giving quick access to all parts of the Metropolis.

A first-class Hotel offering real comfort at most moderate charges. Quiet bedrooms with bathrooms adjoining, overlooking Gray's Inn Gardens. Best Hotel Garage in London. Inclusive terms from 1 2- per day. Telegrams Firavtel, London." Proprietors i GORDON HOTELS, LIMITED.

Feei; Queer Don't Fear Doctor's Bill. Don't Shiver, Only Liver Cockle's Pill Cf VI Cl em md 2)9. AVENUE cared for by the Maltese Government, and ifj should eventually be found desirable, the question of appointing local committees will no doubt be considered. RATES AND VOTES. Mr.

IT ROTTOMLKY (Ind. Hackney asked whether thp President' of the Local: Government Board was aware that at the recent revision of the Parliamentary registers a large number of persons had been struck off the voters in consequence of th? rates for which they had compounded in their rents not having been paid by their landlords. Mr. BURNS (President of the Local Govern- ment Board) I have no general inf crmatiotx in regard to thid matter, but may refer the hon. member to section 8 of the Poor Rate Assess- ment and Collection Act, 1869, under which occupiers may pay rates in default of owners, and deduct the sums so paid from the next payment of rent.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY. I Mr. BOTTOMLEY asked what were the duties of the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, and whether, in tho interests of economy, the Prime Minister would consider the desirability of arranging for their discharge by a less important personage than e. Minister of Cabinet rank and at a lower salary than 2,000 per annum. Mr.

ASQUITH said the duties of the Chan-' cellor of the Duchy were to control the managers of the Duchy estates and revenues, and also within the Countv Palatine of Lancaster to appoint justices of the peace and County Court judges, and to direct the administration of the eslates of persons dying intestate and' without kin, and to perform various duties' which in other counties devolved upon the Lord Chancellor or the Home Secretary. In practice' it had been found by recent Governments an advantage to possess a Minister whose depart-: mental work waa sufficiently light to enable him to attend more closely to other Parliamen-' tary and Ministerial duties. The present pres- sure on Cabinet Ministers was such as to render it, in his opinion, inexpedient to make the change suggested by the- hon. member. Mr.

BOTTOMLEY: Have I the Prime Minister's authority to tell the electorate of East Bristol (where Mr. Hdbhouse is seeking reelection on hi3 appointment as Chancellor of the Duchy) that the gentleman who has performed with creat credit the duties of Secretary to the Treasury ie more useful as maid-of-all-; worn xo me uovernment generally Mr. ASQUITH: I think the duties he discharges are eminently fitted for a business man. (Cheers and laughter.) THE JOHNSON-WELLS MATCH. WHAT IS LEGITIMATE BOXING? Mr.

A. BURGOYNE (U North Kensington) asked the Home Secretary whether he was aware that the action which his predecessor felt compelled to take in connection with the abandoned boxing contest between Jack Johnson and Bombardier Wells had had the effect of causing ground landlords and lessees of many halls in London to refus9 to allow legitimate boxing matches to be decided at their premises. Could he make a statement which would do away with the uncertainty which prevailed, not. only among ground landlords and' lessees of tho "halls, but also amongst bosors and boxing promoters? Mr. Mc-KENNA (Home Secretary): I have noti heard anything of the alleged effect of my pre- decessor's action on ground landlords anri lessees.

The decision of the High Court in the proceedings by tho District Railway against -Earl's Court, Limited, had a. much more direct bearing on their rosition than anything done! by my right hon. friend. The law on the sub ject of boxing contests is well established. My predecessor was advised by the Law Officers that if the object a.nd intent of the combatants wae to subdue each other by violent blows (laughter) until one could enduro it no longer the contest was illegal, and that, on the other hand, a sparring match, in which the object, was to win by skill and not by the severity of tho injuries inflicted, was lawful.

Tho difficulty is not in the law, but in ascertaining whether any contest will or will not be kept within the law a question which depends not merely on the rules which are to apply, but on the way in which the fight is actually conducted. A boxing match whioh, so far a9 the rules are concerned, would be legal, may in fact degene-. rate into a prize fight, and no doubt, having' regard to the decision of the High Court, i ground landlords and lessees are well advised i in taking steps for their own protection. Mr. W.

THORNE (Lab. South-west Does the rjght hon. gentleman think that if i there was anv nossible elianv nf Wolla Vioafir, Johnson we should have heard anything about it! (Laughter.) No answer was given. SOAP AND THE TTNITED STATES TARIFF Mr. HUNT asked whether the attention of the President of the Board of Trade had been called uio laci, tnac mo onairman ot Pears, Limited soapmakcrs.

had decided to set up works in I America because of the American tariff, and I because American soapmakera copied their I goods, advertisements, and name, and sent! i.neu gouus into our market entirely free. Did the Government propose to take a.nv action to prevent this handicap to British trade and British, working people? Mr. BUXTON (President of the Board ot Trade): The hon. member appears to have reproduced correctly a statement made by the. chairman of the Company at their recent general meeting.

The proposal to eTect a' k.LiLa ia tivc iiKciy, understand, to lead to any reduction in the staff employed ia this country. I dr. not propose to tako any action in the matter. Mr. H.

A. WATT (L-GIasgow) Will the right hon. gentleman tell ue the price of foap in America Laughter) TRADE DISPUTES ACT. Sir F. BANBURY (U City of London) introduced a bill to repeal the Trade Disputes Act 1906.

THE INSURANCE BILL. THE COMMITTEE STAGE. The House went into Committee on the In surance Bill, resuming discussion on clause 32, which deals with Post-office contributors. There was an amendment before the Committee, moved on the previous evening by Mr. A.

Sherwell Huddersfieldt, determining the operation of this part of the scheme on January 1, 1315. Mr. LLOYD GEORGE (Chancellor of the Ex-chequer) said that those who listened to the debate on tho previous day would agree that it was one of the most instructive, they had had. It included one or two speeches of singular power, and he was sorry to eay one or two of singular futility. He was sorry he could not except from the latter category that of Mr.

Lyttelton. He did not know where the right hon. gentleman got his information from. He seemed to be under the impression that the young Post-office contributor paid for the old. Mr.

LYTTELTON (U St. George's, Hanover Square) My reading of the bill is that the administration expenses are spread over the whole scheme, and that inasmuch as the Post-office contributor is extremely likely to forfeit his contribution he is paying in that way for those who are richer than himself. Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The right hon. gentleman has forgotten his own speech.

He was dealing with the unfairness of making the young contributor pay to equalise ages. The impression he gave to everybody was that there was the same means of equalising ages in the case of the Post-office contributors as for in sured persons in societies. In the Post-office the contributor stands on his own merits. The State 2d. is not used for equalising ages, and the young contributor does not pay for the old.

There is, therefore, nothing in the point made by the right hon. gentleman. Continuing, Mr. Lloyd George said that Mr. Lyttelton was under INSURANCE BILL COMMITTED.

IN DEPOSIT INSURANCE MR SHERWELL'S AMENDMENT AGREED TO. THE CHANCELLOR AND HIS CK1TICS. (FROM OUR OWN REPORTERS.) The Speaker took the chair yesterday at a iuarter to three. THE FEEBLE-MINDED. LEGISLATION XEXT SESSION.

Dr. A. CHAPPLE (L Stirlingshire) asked v.whether the- Government would bring in a bill to give effect to the resolution of the National Association for the Feeble-minded in favour of -making the permanent segregation of the feeble-minded compulsory. Mr. M.

HICKS-BEACH (TJ Tewkesbury) asked when the Government proposed to give (effect to the Report of the Royal Commission oa the Feeble-minded. Mr. ASQTJXIH (Prime Minister): I have every hope thai legislation dealing with this question- will be undertaken next session. Cheera.) HOUSE OP LORDS REFORM. Mr.

H. BARNSTON Eddisbury) aeked in view of the increase due to recent creations in the numbers of legislating peers, the- Prime Minister could indicate the date when he proposed to introduce the promised legislation to curtail those numbers. Mr. ASQUITH I must refeT the hon. member to the answer I gave yesterday in reply to a 6imilar question that is, that I cannot give any indication of the date.

Mi. BARNSTON Is it still the opinion of the right hon. gentleman that this question brooks no delay Mr. ASQUITH: No avoidable delay. (Dexi-6ive Opposition laughter.) Mr.

J. F. REMNANT (UHolborn): May I ask whether a bill has been prepared dealing with this matter Mr. ASQUITH No, the hon. gentleman may not ask that question, and if he docs I cannot answer it (Renewed Opposition laughter.) Mr.

H. P. CROFT (U Christohurch) asked whether the Government had abondoned their determination to reform the House of Lords. Mr. ASQUITH: No.

sir. Mr. CROFT: Has the attention of the right ho 1. gentleman been drawn to a speech bv tht. Lord Advocate in whioh he said that the talk of the reform of the House of Lords vae follv and moonshine? Was that statement authorised? (Opposition cheers.) Sir W.

P. BYLE3 (LNorth Salford): Seeing that the House of Lords has now been rendered innocuous, will the Prime Minister consider the advisability of leaving well alone (Deri-five Opposition cheers.) Mr. ASQUITH: My answer out of which these supplementary questions arose was the "No." I understand the Lord Advocate the statement attributed to him. TTNE3IPLOY51JEXT INSURANCE. Mr.

ASQUITH stated, in answer to Mr. I. Malcolm (U Croydon), that, having regard to wholly exceptional circumstances in which Part TL of the Insurance Bill was sent to a Grand Coairnittee of the House, a full daily official report of tho proceedings of the Com-rmittee would bo prepared and circulated. POLITICAL LIBEL ACTIONS. Mr.

F. KELLAWAY Ti Bedford) asked whether the attention of the Prime Minister -had been called to xhe -verdicts in the series of libel actions arising out of the last general election, and whether, with a view to increasing Jpublio confidence in the administration of the Iaw in such matters, the Government proposed to introduce legislation. Mt. ASQUITH: The Government are not pre-'. pared to introduce legislation on thia-subject.

(Opposition cheera.) THE HOME RULE BILL. Mr. W. O'BRIEN (Ind. Nat Cork City) asked whether, in view of the conflicting statements made as to the nature of the proposals of the forthcoming Home Rule Bill, the Prime Minister would consider the advisability of the suggestion made in Ireland that a preparatory memorandum should be issued, as in the caso of the Army and Navy Estimates, submitting the main proposals of the Government to publio consideration and suggestion in Ireland, so as to avoid any danger of the repetition of the fate of the Irish Council Bill of 1907.

Mr. ASQUITH: The statements to which the hon. member refers are, of course, mere guesswork. The course suggested in the question is, so far as I know, without precedent, and even if it were practicable which in my opinion it is not it would not be likely to conduce to a satisfactory solution of the problem on the lines which I presume the hon. member desires.

(Laughter.) Mr. O'BRIEN Toes the right hon. gentleman understand that the statements referred to are statements made bv the hon. member for Waterford. who said was fully informed 1 Mr.

J. REDMOND Waterford) I never made any such statement. Mr. O'BRIEN: Then I beg to give notice that I shall have a word to say on the subject on the motion for the adjournment to-night. Mr.

R. HUNT (U Ludlow) asked whether the Government scheme for Home Rule included proposals that the Irish members should still sit in the British House of Commons, and whether the Irish Second Chamber would be brought into existence before the promised reconstructed Second Chamber was established for great Britain. Mr. ASQUITH referred to the answer he gave on the previous day to a similar question. Mr.

HUNT: May we conclude that the Government are going to force a Home Rule Bill into law although the people have never been allowed a chance of deciding whether The SPEAKER: The hon. member is anticipating the debates of next session. MALTESE PROPERTY IN TRIPOLI. Mr. J.

POINTER lLab. Sheffield) asked the Foreign Secretary whether he was aware that consequent upon the hasty departure of Maltese oolonieis from Tripoli the property which they were compelled to leave behind was pillaged by Arabs, and that the harvests of the Maltese had been reaped by natives; whether Hia Majesty'6 Government intended to make representations to the Italian Government with a view to securing compensation for all British subjects who had suffered damage through the present war; and whetheT, in the meantime. His Majesty's Government intended, following the precedent established during the bombardment of Alexandria, creating a local Maltese) Committee to help the refugees who were stilt in the island or who had been taken back to Tripoli, and giving to such Committee all the power vested in the Malta-Egyotian Committee of 18B4. Mr. F.

D. ACLAND (Under Foreign Secretary) His Majesty's Government have been informed! that on the withdrawal of the Turkish troops from Tripoli the country people pillaged a i number of shops and stores in that town. I have not yet been informed how far Maltese were affected, but will inquire. I am' not aware that the harvests of the Maltese have been reaped by natives. No claims for compensation have yet been received, but any are received1 they ah all be considered on their merits, and I snail examine the principle on I which might ho useful to the right hon.

gentle- man, the next time he spoke on the Insurance BilL Mr. LYTTELTON Did I say the contrary? jux. JWLOID GEORGE: Certainly. k- LYTTELTON I agree that I said that me iost-olhce contributors would be of the poorer classes. We are all fallible.

Even tne right hon. gentleman has mads a- great mistae.s- I think what I said was, mucvL. oytiiiung, accurate am quite wiling to accept his statement, I am glad of tho opportunity of making tho thing clear. What he said in his erwech is what has been said all over the country. It 7s Pression given by the speeches of "JT OI 1X16 opposition.

Now haTO diswvered the source of the right hon, gentle-1 man a information. He has read some annnv. mous pamphlet. He save a nmrfA ate of it last night. The leader of tit v.ijpiKiiuicm ema to have got from him the impression he gathered from the pamphlet during perhaps the companionable times of a ot agricultural labourers belonged to friemidlv DuwButj, man ot any other class-.

hi future' CRIPPS Wycombe): Thev won't Mr rrnvn r.i--,r,-, 7, tiLURGE That means that now pay ed. they join, but in that deposit contributors of administration clause 32, which provided that. AOlo in resnert. nf l' lo in respect of a denosit. P.nnirVCw:-1: IHirnoses of m.j;,v,i iui iu benefit ami towards the expert ofHn1 rVe I except far a3 they aro nayabio deduced T'he EiL from the amount standin- tc his VrpHi J)h Post-office Fund." Mr.

Llovd George not cheers.) clause. (Opposition Mr. LLOYD GFOKnr- 1 cnant- "L'Juea say that the reason whv tho right hon. gentleman did not kuc otknnwtWa wn bpfinsA hnA -i because he had not read it. Now I ootoa in i viiiW iV navmgread ft, ho does not un-rsiana it.

The section he has read haf nothing to do with the expenses of the Insur-ance Commissioners. tra tier hlbtAfl'-' Exchequer too often misrepresent it really does not ennov nTe at tu irar some passages with Mr. J. A. Clyde (U LytTelton 03,1,0 the rporf r.

the under acknow man or by Mr. Lanshury Mr. G. LANSBURY fLab Botv and Broml said that what ho had protested against over and over again was the flat rate of M. on thtvo .1 1 comDlainin tnat you said it was a flat rate, but that vou did not go a little further and say that under that it was not a flat rate.

JiVRYl ChaUen5e th ht hot, centleman ot anv other momv. i win nou66 to show that in any address I have given on this urn i. nve mau auy sxatement that I am not prepared to substantiate here ot nrntti. Si1'' i have made a speech schedule without reading the schedule of tho bill. Tho right hon.

gentleman has no to say that I have done anything different (Opposition cheers.) ucinug fieopie ot tne actual Mr. LLOYD GEORGE I have gone by what is reported in the press. If the hon. gentleman tells me that at his meetings he has made it perfectly clear that under 1 schedule which comes down from fourpence r--rJ uowimg wiu, accept his statement at once. 3Ir.

LANSBURY I have said that more than 11. amrence oetween us 13 that calf? Tho nrAmiiTtn wa Kaei v. "ocu vjii a. uaiiy wage ins-teart of a weeVtv Ka I. the schedule.

1U Ja uJn in ueciuif. ttt. Mr. UI1' aaaeti mat as long as he understood that the hon. gentleman had 1 said that ho accepted the statement at nn wunuuiufc, wuin.i.Ji ui me riicneauer'V, sp.tH that, what hn vrantiifl to mow viwi inas iV.l it V.A nothing m-i-u 1 iuti iMiirm i 11 -i cpIIot uv.t.

i'iian- say wnat as- a matter of fief the matter ot i act xm jii cotintrv was thf asrr "a3 Ln- t0 of a i iv of to If of lit i i A I be i I trv 11 Wd help these people in so Idisorlmfn ThI" sort tnem, and tuen pick out mem t0 utmost. It had been said the plan i of the bil1 would insure the healthy and neglect weaK, and was not preventive in its char- actel'- What the bill would do was to prevent 'f" aiiHg mwj cue J03 showed that in one Union 40 per cent of i t'le pauperism was because of sickness. In Glasgow between 50 and 60 percent were pauper- "workhouse ultimately. The scheme would deal with these people before they reached the stofje when that hocjinrifi- nflppsiiTv. Tt.

cava tr sick medical treatment-something that 'm that they would not fall into the ranks of the pauper. mo aErreed tnat pxistiriE? invalids con-: Tt a sreat and difficult problem, but they would bo a diminishing number. The problem the Post-office contributor was to a certain extent a temporary one. The problem that re- a thing more drastic than an Insurance Bill. (Cheers, i He had never concealed that view Sneers.) He had never said that the bill icfaiW f0" Sft cal failure, and unemployment.

You could not insure existing invalids they were an uninsurable proposition." It was, as he had said, like insuring a house on fire. Part of a Larger Programme. Wo shall, Mr. Lloyd George concluded, have face the more permanent problem of nhvsical failures. The hon.

member for Huddersfield saiil list. mVht 4v. unua, quil6 airTeo with him. vn- cannot bo done in this bill to -in iu ot ixiat great dltficultv. and I bono in hn v.lun.unji, H.UQ i nope TO Oe ahln in fln uf 4L I something before the bill passes into law.

(Cheers.) You must begin early. The germs of physical weakness and debility and destitution Msutuuaa are sown earlj-. 0u have a life amendment of the hon. gentleman. "c'Lr nar.j Although on tho face of the iclause had already made it temnorarv.

he1 clause we had already mHn t. iro wanls bejond that. He wants a statutory guarantee on the face of the Act that this Pa "ament wiU not separate without facing tho problem when it gets the facts. That gtfaran- iep IU0 uo-ernmcnt are perfectly willing to aTe -(Cheers.) The problem of the onr aw, tno problem of child sickness Jl.J1.-i.. are prooiems that have to bo iaceu.

inc-v are an wuws nroTilm ii. oecause i "6' y-Ji uie nou. genucman that thev bo dealt with v. ave 1.11 at ave Ject lhe I am a hearty sho.nd 1... l.naf vT' mcioijr uy uiis oiu but by a 1.

1 1... 'other measures measures uffSoi tne people to remove poverty and pestilence from the soil of Great Britain (Cheers.) MR. H. W. FORSTER'S SUGGESTION.

Mr. H. W. FORSTKR (U Sevenoaks) said the Chancellor of the Exchequer possessed two styles, the Committee had had an opportunity! all "seriousne to 8iaff "maelf JJ that lav oloso to m7w pdx preferred the i' Llf ULH II PSil. -t11T.

ltd icon jcoiild not pa6s over fho attack which the Chan cellor of the Exchenn IZ, telton. The Chancellor nr on Mr. Pick out of Mr. Lvtteltnn'a Lyttelton's speech one t.v. accuracy that he demanded from hi, Tooliti opponentsI Opposition ch4s Political Mr.

H. F. BOOTH (L PontWraw-. -u j- Mr s9 he did. should be in order, but I should bo WnJ take up tho challen JL -uappj nn1? ff'3 out- Mr! LLOYD GEORGE So trnnf'T' -r.

FORSTER: I could lav 'points in thn risrht.h t-he serious part of the Chancellor1 Vr il'orster eaid the ivt. speecn, Mr. Oied. Hn fihawfl fto -4ien ttv, unanoellor m- uiijiiBi tua it wouid ruin ho scheme if all that coori to tne "whole all that. 'paid over to hi t.i,-" weqit was "ia.n credit 1 ntir ma i i see why that part, of 'the iu-rLine dld nt tributed by the man hiro.vif Vi co.n' St.to -r 7'" snoma not be paid ov He threw OUt this an a r-PLa I'D hon.

gentleman's conSiderItiorT Ilght Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: Hear, hear Mr. FORSTER, continuing fd 1 a-a 1 think it would be anrft which would give thdeposit contribfe real insurance. It c.l?a makine-an effort, to fl Ue People were not or-anised. nrf through thTne LThe other ffiV Tha WM 110 "oa why their ca not given the mt minute attentiM He suggested that the Chancellor the )hei1 to bring a scheme for the deposit contributor? msuranoe scheme.

irntl hi in fl Tool DAtin "-iJ. THE LABOUR LEADER. Mr. RAMSAY MACDONALD (Lab. Leicester) homrht ths Chanrllor th thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer took lUD "iJ isl' Vlew 01 xnis Part of the scheme The difficulty of the nrohipm Ix." Wlafc iney were no "ire whom thev would have to deai with- His own view was that t.h office "would come from many KOllTP.eS which t.bft Chjlnpollor 1U vl ule had not indicated.

He was therefore against uucic 1 1. ii 1 1 1 6 6 tonse as Sood as could now, and let the Chancellox of the iExche(luer aPPoint a rnmittee of experts to tch its worki day, so that at the end of a period named in the amendment they might be in a position to walk by Sh aJ nftt mv hv faiih a gtlt iCai XJroDlem iW ijiuuiem mey "ao was prooiem ol the casual labourer. They were not going to helr thn casual labourer by giving him free medical advice, but by making him something better ihnn a casual labourer. Therr' was no use deluding themselves in 16 lhe belief that thev aiier twenty minutes Lyttelton time tne Chancellor of i-u i wiuuintT. cnequer went to make a Jn i wvship ho himself 1" vuiono of "si, pro- m.i -jn it i Li jt r-t- f- i 1 i 1 1 i i I I I i c8s' driftless, feckless classesthose whose work during a season, and then for the rest the year prefer to stay at home.

It very often happens on out nnnsL The is it oLoss rif gin wno enters into servico at a seaside Tesort for a short rmrt high wages, then for the rest of the year does not rung. Ttisv 1Un. Mt. any society. The best thin" thev could do Tvnvi Jl 7 oma wouia do to join the Post-office, because it would havo the effent ot saving- tip money for r.VMAV kfO AWt I 1 aaea another class those who join lato in life.

Tllat ia not 1uite the same sort of case, because mim iin a friendly societv and get re- dud benefits. Therefore I rule them out. The Government Proposal. What Is our proposal? There has been a great deal of misrepresentation about it. I should like the Committee and tho countrv fU9t aU tholou8hly to realise to whom the applies, ana wnat it i betore it is 1 kavo already stated to whom it nppbes- 11 dofiS nt apply merely to the un- tho argument that the first thing we do is to sort out the Post-offico contributor, We rcalised that from tho start.

We knew this schema could not be a final solution of the problem. "We did not put it forward as a solu- We put it for.vard as a tcmnon.rv method aralo them from those which arc provisional anrt -temP orary, and so get information on which wo can drYiP.nd wbnn tn ini wo come to deal wi prouiem, In tho meantime who join thi" ari3 h(Ki off than tney "w'oto before. Does any one doubt that and not neces- samy lourpenoe. They may be people earning 1Ss' a week 12s- and under, or 9s. and tney may bo paying only twopence I 7 ai5Ujne a payment -n luuiLtinue.

j.ney tret anaition 1i that tho threepence of the cmnlr.vnr nnH tv, i vyu vi miliums, wmcii is naid to their m-no-i nrHV, I-" draw their 10; and 5s. a week as Ions as tnat lasts, what more do thev get! Thev net sanatorium benefit, which i' i is not deducted They BBi t0 the entI lllT6 tt b-efn a gestion that th" Health Committee shouYd have th nmcor a-VT on rr i i j. i. "i "-loiimug wmu j.oj uiaut at; us aiscre-tion. That, I think, is a very good amendment, and a very considerable Tn TYIWI7 art it is carried they would havo full sanatorium millions of.shillingg to be- paid in to maintain l.S? and Aha thouiands of these poor people will om tuberculosis.

They are going to get "3 2 Lbu but thf benefit of the wliolo or" tho rontrihu. fi -iiniii'ii tions of all the fifteen million of 5av6 Pj tho whole contributions of the i3taie' "Ed Dey.nrl. tba' "there ia a deficit on Health CommUtee oT Vatoriumben uentno uity ciiu TtbcrQ to tne oi.uo ana and if these assent half the paid out of the rates and half Aoi.Ar Th p.ffi iv the full benefit of the whole of that "No Use Talking Generalities." When we are considering proposal like this is no use talking eeneralitien nnri i. thing is no good. Let us see first what'the' nro posal really is.

Another suggestion has been made-that the balance which stands to a con over selves 10 tnat, let ua consiaeT what it really means. If I mav sav so. th n. fruit of rather imm; added to the bill i.i.v Oven' Uealtny person tO become PocfK oontTih.it.or TtheT than a ui a society. fairly healthy man, 20 years of a.e.

of habits, would consider whether it better for him to join the Post-offiee tvTri mir go to. a friendly. society. (Cheers.) If 5 friP.nrilv RrtfiPtv hft Trill Vii -V umess ill If IU, ucJJRnr .1:. If he joins me jrosi-iMjiuo aun mis amenament pafriai -u- A5" tt, would become aggregations of the unfit.

Wai TiVA societies "would noVtake 7 Mr. LLOYD GEORGE: The societies wom die This would be tho one 1, 7 1 the' friendly societies Vmg would be theirs and not his. He was toToniS a to rcit tho ur wn. "uicuuiL'PnT. Tho ffArtt a 1 -ost-omce as a TZ tlt SOcieti-(Cheers.) He bad heMd a deal abut confiscation.

But the man could draw as long as he lived. If a ticum uamuce at the end, that balance merged in the whol ,1 ouu cased thal fund foT. the fit of others (Cheers.) It was a kind of tontine arrant, ment. If the balance were handed over to the I ma-rt. of kin thfiV Would bfi ff ot- 1.

1 w.ii6 ma lUQuce-! ment of a new kind of savings bank such ow ihsciixxk. Mil II sara Tl'rt i 1 I a MTOt COUMry befow- WOUld faI bettef-faT more iehtford- to refuse at the outset to recognise the societies, and aJI? Dati01 syBtem' the; than adopt this insidious method of gradually 'n bankniptcy.2 'eers. It haf been saad they could not compel tne juuieiies iu ia.e xnese people, but compel ine socieues. iu iase inese people, but miirht offer theiu sew that he reminded the As to I.Omilli!!M th.it man wlio joined a friendly rr.cicry carried with lnm a reserve vaiue a r.nn oetween 45 anrl 50 had i reserv value ot B. 13s.

if he was an i.jviii:ti int. a'-1, mi 1 iui was a very question wht-tt: the society iia lake but it. tlier it was not tohis nextkin. Before commiUing ou. ia me sture criticism.

If that is it will be to the aovant, so i I of i to I i 1 -t i i to i i i i fZ i 1 i 'he of a Ju 1 a i i I 1 1 i to the councils, it balance can i oi.f. of fh tt I i therG were cortain voluntary contributors of An neditii uoinnutiee suouia rorm a snc.iat.v incrano. oi u.Z "VJ.ii"u.LUla tal 6 01 au ipproven society) resi- aent wantn tne area. dW? i. a-roement tnat fclance at" allTiSd ttt lhV.h 'together the sum v.

wlLUltUllUWlill might like to become PosWffico contri- 'butors. particularly the blind, who were re- jected by the friendly societies. Their "em- Payment was not as a rule of such a char- acter as to be within the meanine of the hill. and ne proposed to give them the opportunity and he oronosed to becoming contributors. amendment with this object was agreed to.

jj. v. aiio proposea mat every Tho Committee divided, aJid theTe voted- For the amendment 123 Against 243 Majority against 120 An amendment was made on the motion of Mr. Lloyd George dealing with the period during which a depositor might receive medical benefit and sanatorium benefit in spite of the sums to his credit in the Post-office Fund having been exhausted. As the clause stood his right to such benefits continued until the expiration of the then current Under the amendment the Local Health Committee is empowered, "if it has funds available for the purpose and thinks fit to do so," to continue either or both of the benefits "after the expiration of such year' Mr.

CASSEL moved the omission of paragraph (c) "A deposit contributor shall not be entitled to sickness benefit unless at least -52 weekly contributions have been paid by or respect of him." This was accepted by the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, who explained that it would bring the deposit contributor under the same provision (in Clause 8) as the member of an approved society namely, that he would not be entitled to sickness benefit until he had paid at least twenty-six contributions. The amendment was adopted. OX A DEPOSIT CONTRIBUTOR'S DEATH. Mr. EDMUND HARVEY (L-Leeds) moved the omission of paragraph (g), which provides that the amount standing in the Post-office Fund to the credit of a deposit contributor shall upon his dying be forfeited.

In substitution he proposed the insertion of words to provide that on a deposit contributor's death an amount proportionate to his contributions, with such interest as the Insurance Commissioners might allow, should be paid to his representatives out of the amount standing to his credit. Mr. LLOYD GEORGE said he had great lue sympathy with the object of the amendment. At the same nme ne am not want to make thft deposit contributors' class too attractive tk! words proposed by Mr. Harvey would not quite carry out the object the hon.

member had in view, but he would undertake on the Report stage to bring up an amendment which would provide that the amount paid in by a deposit Lntributor should be ascertained Jt Ms death and paid out to his nextf-kin after a deduction for expenses and benefits. Action Mr BOOTH warned the Committee that M6Xy softies ould oppos? thconcess on unless something of the same kind tteir members. rT mBrr.r.firs. Tho amendment was withdrawn Mr. CASSEL moved an amendment to provide that the amount standing to the credit of a deposit contributor should be paid out to him upon his ceasing permanently to reside in the United Kingdom.

Mr. LLOYD GEORGE said he would under- jow wages or lumi'nvD v.m no me threepence high wages. Agricultural labourers and'c uhe employer will be paid in, the two to-hundreds of thousands of women earning only hef ffifgg AeT A SB. would be societies. In future they 'it would be 100.

Instead of the PosffiVp would pay nothing, the whole expense being being the refuge of the unhealthy, the Eooietio- divided between tho employer and tho St.itn en tne- employer and the Stati Tho problem of the deposit contributor was of the deposit contributor was not a problem of high and low wages, but a totally different problem. The problem was! this-ther the bill must be worked through the existing societies or it must not. If it office contributor was inevnable.Ministerial cheers.) If tne sooieties were not recognised, a i- 11 tue uiu was ni woiiiea mrougn them, theNhioh hi in 1. societies were destroyed. (Ministerial cheers Was there any man in the House who fhat? iv.i.i.

lunuose If the societies were recnenin be given the right of choosing their own mem- bers. Taking a Church of England societv for example, was it to be said that that society must take anv man who choan in rfmnlr. entrance? Or a Wesleyan society or a tem- -ri'ij iu. wnwiVlAA nT Tf irtr i rnt a ti il rd6rS dA tb C01" 1 Jrrfw Ja J0? t0 take It ro thT Select societies. The test might be a sectarian or pohioal test or a test of temperance, but it would have the effect of excluding all a th awiemes witnout tests would have to take them all in.

xhe moment tne decision was reached to work the bill through tire societies it was necessary to give mem tr.e ngnt ot admission and exclusion tt i Ho had considered that problem round and nhich His Majesty's Governinent dealt with! the impression that there ware me new exclaims arising oat of the South African War, peases to be incurred under the bill, the ex-.